1. REDCODE vs 35mm Film
I’m sure everyone has had this argument with someone they know or work with. I’ve had this discussion/argument with a cinematographer who has both shot on film and on RED and still prefers 35mm over RED despite the long waiting period and higher costs of production. Maybe it’s an age/generation difference. Here are some facts that I have read regarding RED footage and 35mm film and how each is handled. I highly recommend checking out , it’s a great read!
35mm Film Camera
RED Digital Camera
RED & 35mm Cameras
“A counterargument goes that 35mm film must be sharper because the image has a resolution which is referred to as a 4K resolution, meaning 4000 horizontal pixels or samples. However, after the 4K film negative is finished, it has to be photographically copied several times before being projected onto the cinema screen. At every stage, the quality of the film always suffers. It can be said / shown that the image we view on the cinema screen is unlikely to be better than 1.2K.
Let’s look at a 35mm film’s route from camera to cinema screen. In order to duplicate the original negative many, many times so that it may be shown simultaneously in many cinemas, the picture will have to be copied, photographically, several times.”
35mm Film Processing
A. The original camera master is copied to;
B. An inter-positive print film which is then copied to;
C. An inter-negative film which is then printed to;
D. The release print which is then shown through;
E. The projector lens on to;
F. The cinema screen.
This lengthy process is necessary because film is mechanically vulnerable and should only go through the printing machine a limited number of times. This printing and re-printing process is done in order to get over 3,000 copies of a 35mm film into your local theater. By the time that a 35mm master negative image reaches your cinema screen, most experts agree that the image on the screen is no better than 1.2K to 1.4K, and that’s being generous.
RED Frame Size
Compare this a with true 4K REDCode digital image that has stayed completely digital without any kind of quality loss and you will come to realize that the only degradation your REDCode 4K film will have suffered will have come from the digital projector lens. Hence if the production has stayed within the REDCode 4K domain, the resolution that can be projected on-screen can still be between 2K and 4K (depending on how you finished your producion). If you are wondering why I mentioned finishing in 2K, please read the next section.
2. Shoot 4K and finish in 2k?
Although working with the RED camera can be great, please be aware of something that’s very important. At the time of this article, NLEs like Final Cut Pro and Adobe Premiere Pro have released plug-ins that allow you to natively edit REDCODE files. However, this does not mean that they can export back to full 4K R3D files.
When picking a resolution to shoot with, you should keep in mind that although the RED
Camera can shoot media at 4K, 3K, and 2K resolutions, there are positives and negatives to each resolution if you’re planning on doing your post-production using Final Cut Studio:
Digital Formats
• 4K media will always be resized to 2K quality during the Log and Transfer process in Final Cut Pro 6.
• 3K media is not supported by Final Cut Pro’s real time effects architecture at this time.
• 2K media is imported as is, with no resizing and is supported by Final Cut Pro’s real time effects architecture. It is the maximum resolution that can be output by Apple COLOR as well.
Remember, RED media is read-only; you cannot export media using the REDCODE
Codec. Instead, you will have to finish using either Apple ProRes 422 (HQ) or Uncompressed 10-bit 4:2:2. So while your project was shot with REDCode 4K resolution, you will ultimately be finishing with a 2K quality picture.
This isn’t a bad thing though. As I mentioned, only 2K digital copies can be exported from all existing NLEs. This may change in the future but it will be a couple of years before we can truly edit native 4K images and export at 4K. Even at 2K, your project will still look amazing if not better than 35mm film. If you don’t believe me, try playing a 2K version of your film in an actual theater and you will see what I mean.
UPDATE: FINAL CUT STUDIO 3 HAS BEEN ANNOUNCED!
Final Cut Pro 7 and COLOR 1.5 now FULLY SUPPORT REDCODE 4K Files and can also export in Full 4K ProRes 4444.
Details can be found here:
FINAL CUT STUDIO 3 Information
3. Some Assembly Required
Whether you bought your own RED Camera or will be renting one, you will doing something major assembly before starting a RED Production. Before starting the American Salesman shoot, Andy Bragdon brought in his brand new RED Camera. He had ordered the Base Production Pack with his RED Camera.
Assembling the RED
Iskra & I making adjustments
Mounting the RED-RAM
Iskra Valtcheva and I began to put the RED Configuration together when we we realized that we were missing another set of rails. The Base Production Pack came with only 1 pair of rails and did not come with any extras. The basic configuration can be a bit difficult to work with since the Hard Drive would block the RED Camera controls. We went ahead and rented some spare rails from Michael Morlan here in Austin to finish the configuration we wanted. Always be sure to check if you have all the parts for the RED Configuration you want to use!
4. Check, Check, & Double Check the Back Focus!
If you have worked with film cameras or 35mm adapters before, then this will just be a refresher. For those of you coming into RED with no background on this, back focus refers to the “focal flange length”. This is the distance between the rear lens element and the CMOS Sensor for the RED. If you find that your focus is sharp when you are zoomed in but soft when zoomed out, your back focus needs adjusting.
Nikon SLR Zoom Lens
Adjusting the Lens
Check & Double Check!
This happened to us when we were testing out the Nikon Primes we would be using for the American Salesman shoot. The 35mm Manual SLR Nikon Lens would be soft while the 135mm Nikon Lens would be just right. Its usually better to measure the back focus if you have a Manuel SLR Zoom Lens to make sure all of your focal points are in tact. Be sure to consult a RED DP when checking the back focus on the Camera. The last thing you want is for your image to go soft at 4K resolution.
5. Use a GOOD Tripod
RED with O'Conner Tripod
Make no mistake about it. The RED Camera with Hard Drive and Lens will easily weigh in at about 30lbs. You need a DAMN GOOD Tripod to hold this kind of weight, especially for tilts and pans. May I recommend an O’Connor Tripod? Any Tripod that can hold a 35mm Film Camera will do. Don’t even try to use anything less than this or you’ll run into a lot of problems. Be ready to spend some money here.
6. Use Ice Packs with your noisy RED Camera.
If you have never worked with the RED Camera before, then you are in for a rude surprise. THIS CAMERA GETS REALLY HOT! We did some outdoor shots on the latest production of American Salesman and the camera began to overheat on us. Did I mention it was only 8:30am and we had just started 30min prior? In order to prevent a shutdown, we filled a small plastic zip lock back with ice cubes and laid it on top of the RED Camera. If you are shooting a project outside in the summer heat, be ready to bring plenty of ice packs. If not, you will have to shut the camera down mid production in order for it to cool off.
Ice Pack on RED
Operating in Outdoor Heat
Ice Pack #2 on RED
Not only does this camera get HOT very fast, but the cooling fan inside the camera is noisy as hell. Make sure that your sound guy is ready for this since the RED Camera has a loud fan running a majority of the time while in use.
7. Shoot Sync Sound
Unlike many other digital cameras that indie filmmakers are used to, the RED Camera does not come with an on-board microphone or a mic attachment. The inputs on the RED Camera are mini-XLR. Controlling the actual audio levels is completely different than using HD cameras such as the HPX170 or JVC GY-HM700 where you can adjust your audio via the knob controls.
4 Mini-XLR Inputs
Setting up Sound
Sean the Sound Guy
I recommend hiring a professional like my buddy Sean McCormick to do sound on a RED Production. If you hire the proper sound professional, make sure you shoot sync sound into your RED Camera, as it will make the entire editing process a lot easier for you.
8. REDCODE 28 vs. REDCODE 36
What makes the these codecs different from any other codecs on the market is that these two codecs from RED deal with actual MegaBytes per second and not Megabits. Don’t be confused with what other companies like Panasonic, Sony, or JVC offer. Panasonic uses DVCProHD and AVC-Intra at 100 Megabits a second. REDCODE uses over 25 MegaBytes. Remember, there is a huge difference between MegaBits and MegaBytes because 1 MB = 8 Mbits.
• REDCODE 28 runs at over 200 Mbits per second in 2K, 3K, & 4K.
• Panasonic’s DVCPROHD codec runs at 100 Mbits per second in 1080P Mode.
• Sony’s and JVC’s XDCAM EX runs at only 35 Mbits per second in 1080P mode.
REDCODE 28 allows you to use undercranking and overcranking with the RED Camera. You can overcrank to 120 Frames per Second or undercrank to 1 frame a second. The higher your overcrank speed however, the lower resolution you have to use. At the moment, the RED Camera can only overcrank to 120 FPS at 2K quality. It cannot do 3K and 4K at those speeds. Check out the video below of some skateboarders shot at 120FPS at 2K. It is amazing what you can get at this speed!
skate – shot on red #1347 – 120 fps from Opus Magnum Production on Vimeo.
REDCODE 28 is also the suggested codec you should use with the RED Camera if you are shooting to Compact Flash cards. With a 16GB Compact Flash Card, you can shoot the following:
• 1min of REDCODE 28 @ 2K = 1.1GB
• 1min of REDCODE 28 @ 3K = 2.5GB
• 1min of REDCODE 28 @ 4K = 4.4GB
Compared to HDV, DVCProHD, and AVC-Intra, REDCODE28 give you full 4:4:4 Intraframe detail but comes at a very high price of storage when shooting at 4K. If you have done the math already, you’ve come to realized that at 4K quality, REDCODE 28 will only give you roughly less than 4min on a 16GB Compact Flash card, where as at 2K quality, it can give you much more. If you are going to be shooting your RED project using CF Cards, be ready to have at least 3-4 spare cards and a data wrangler who can offload the CF Cards to a laptop with an external hard drive. Treat this work-flow like you would a film shoot where by each CF Card is like a re-usable film roll but only gives a limited shooting time.
REDCODE 36 is a different story. This codec is only to be used if you have RED-DRIVE or RED-RAM with your camera configuration. This codec should not be used if you are shooting to Compact Flash cards. The data rate is too high and you will run out of space in a minute or less. REDCODE 36 uses a larger data rate for your footage and breaks down as the following:
• 1min of REDCODE 36 @ 2K = 1.4GB
• 1min of REDCODE 36 @ 3K = 3.1GB
• 1min of REDCODE 36 @ 4K = 5.5GB
While on the American Salesman shoot here in Austin Texas, we used the RED-RAM 120GB Hard Drive with our RED Configuration. We chose to shoot at the highest quality and decided to go with REDCODE 36 @ 4K. You might think that a 120GB Hard Drive is plenty for this kind of shoot, but oh how wrong we were! After the first 12 hour day, we had shot over 200GB of RED Footage and had only completed half the scenes for the production. We had to offload the Hard Drive twice in one day and it took some time to do.
Scene 8A Roll 1
RED-RAM w/ 120GB HDD
Setting up the Shot
By the time we finished the entire production, we had shot over 350GB worth of footage. Did I mention that this was all going to be edited down to a 10min short film? Be sure you are always looking at the Hard Drive indicator on your RED Camera and always make sure that you have at least 90min to 120min for offloading time (Yes, it took us almost 2 hours to offload a full hard drive using firewire 800 on our Mac computer).
9. Choose your RED Workflow wisely.
REDCODE to ProRes 422
There are three different work flows that you can use when working with Final Cut Pro. You can either edit from the proxy files that the RED Camera leaves in all of your clip folders, or you can log & transfer your footage and transcode it to Apple ProRes 4:2:2 HQ. These work flows are recommended for anyone editing REDCode footage with a single Quad-Core Processor in their older MacPros. I would highly recommend you don’t even try to edit REDCode with an old G5 machine. If you still own a G5 MacPro, it’s time for an upgrade.
Here is the work flow that I chose and that I recommend for MacPro users that have Dual 8-core Processors and lots of RAM for editing REDCode with Final Cut Pro. By using Log & Capture and setting the RED Plugin to transcode the RED footage natively, FCP will re-wrap the RED footage as QuickTime clips which eliminates the transcoding to ProRes step. In other words, I won’t be converting any of the raw footage into Apple ProRes 422. Allow me to explain the advantages and disadvantages of this work flow.
• Advantage - This is an efficient workflow that skips the need for transcoding, and gives you access to high-quality image data when you grade in Color. Ingesting RED QuickTime media is fast when compared to transcoding. This is a good workflow for projects such as short films and commercial spots.
• Disadvantage - RED QuickTime media is very processor-intensive when editing.
10. Color Correction with Apple COLOR
Since I primarily work with Final Cut Studio 2, I’ll go ahead and discuss the color correction process with Apple COLOR.
RED NATIVE Edit Option
Color Correction Options
After ingesting the RED footage through Log & Transfer and giving it an overall color correction (there are 5 options), I put a short sequence together and sent it off to Color. What makes this work flow amazing is that all of the metadata transfers with the RED footage from FCP to Color. You now have control and can process your very own unique film look!
The RED camera writes raw, linear light image data to the R3D files that are recorded. The controls found in the RED camera’s Audio/Video menus in no way alter the way the image data is written within each R3D file. Instead, whatever settings were chosen at the time are stored within each recorded clip as metadata that determines how these media files are displayed.
This metadata can be overridden during the Log and Transfer process. For clips that were imported with native color metadata, the RED tab provides access to the clip Color, Color Temp, and View metadata originally written by the RED camera. However, this metadata can also be overwritten during ingest using a custom color processing option in the Log and Transfer window (1 of the 5 options I mentioned above).
RED metadata in Color
Changes to RED metadata
My Own Look in Color
These parameters are provided so that you can begin grading each clip in the state at which it was originally monitored during the shoot, or at which it was ingested using the Log and Transfer window.
Below you will find the process I went through for each of these clips. They began as RAW and Unprocessed, then were given an overall color correction when ingested into Final Cut Pro, then Color was used to get the desired look.
Unproccessed Image from RED Camera
Daylight Correction given in Final Cut Pro
Final Color Correction given in Apple Color
Unprocessed Image from RED Camera
Daylight Correction given in Final Cut Pro
Final Color Correction given in Apple Color
If you would like to see the Uncompressed images from above, download them here:
Download RAW RED Images Zip file
I know this article got a bit long, but I hope I was able to fully explain what I think is critical for any filmmaker to know before they step into a RED Production. I’d like to thank my friends Andy Bragdon, Charles Nwachukwu, and John Handem for letting me use their American Salesman production shoot as a reference to many of the points made in this article.
Call me crazy but, Condensation and 4k camera don’t seem like the best of ideas.
It would be great to hook up a PC like liquid cooling system or radiator style off camera.
Don’t the DI that most films do help preserve the original quality of the 35mm? If you shoot, do a 1k scan for editing then go back and pull a 4k of just the timecode/frames you need you can pull in a 4k from the original and do a darn good laser print or go to digital format for DLP/Digital projection systems.
Do you have any shots of night footage and or handheld? What is the latitude like? I find that usually the quality of images degrades fastest with night shots, exposure of light sources/blown out areas and action shots shot with a long shutter.
Oh and 120 minutes to download the drive!?!?!
I think the digital is impressive…but they aren’t there yet. Budgeting aside, I’d still go 35mm for a feature.
Yeah, that’s why we used just a few ice cubes and very tight zip lock bag. We actually changed the Ice Bag out several times in order to avoid water from leaking the bag. Surprisingly though, there was very little condensation. I agree, a PC cooling system would be ideal haha.
1K scan or editing and then going back to the film all over again? The whole reason of RED is keep everything simple with Log & Transfer in Final Cut Pro and having the ease of a digital copy right at your finger tips.
I haven’t seen any night footage yet of the RED, but remember that it does have a CMOS sensor which are very good sensors in low-light.
I think Digital will surpass film in the next few years as the technology of RED catches up.
There are a few things you should inform your reader’s on the true fact’s about film vs. video?
First and foremost is the fact that film has a higher optical resolution than 4k, has a much wider latitude range than any digital device and the longevity of film has proven itself over 100 yrs.
Second and I am surprised that no where else is this mentioned is the fact that film is not a 2d medium, It is more like 2.5d. Compare that with digital anything that has no depth whatsoever.
Third is the simple fact that digital files do degrade, and I’ll give you an example: capture codex
compression 1, edit codex compression 2, color and effects codex compression 3, finally output to non raw file compression 4.
It is sad that you also own kinor gear as I also owned for 15 years. I’ll put up those camera’s to the red any day and add the lomo glass you have images that cannot be captured digitally.
If I’m wrong or mistaken please correct me. Thanks
Excellent Blog Post!
Jason, whilst I think everyone agrees the dynamic range of film still has the edge over any existing digital format, I don’t think the apparent resolution an S35 motion film negative has ever exceeded 4k. I’m not referring to the fact that most film is scanned at 2k, but rather the resolution on the negative itself (which does vary hugely according to the stock, lighting, etc) resolving to around 3.5k under optimal conditions. The rest of the time, the resolution of the super35mm dips around the 3k to 2k mark and under. That said, the RED, whilst marketed as a 4K camera (and it does record a 4k image file), the Mysterium sensor only resolves to 3.2k So, when using optimal stock, shooting conditions, and the rest, film barely edges out RED in resolution. That’s without considering IMAX and the forthcoming EPIC, obviously.
As for this ‘film is 2.5D’… I agree that a lot of people think that film has a ‘look’ that digital finds hard to capture, but calling it 2.5D is absurd. Film captures images resolving from a lens onto a flat film plane that is developed chemically. RED captures images resolving from a lens onto a flat sensor that is captured digitally. But they’re both flat. You could be referring to the lack of film grain on a digital image (especially from RED), but that’s a separate issue altogether.
Lastly on the issue of compression… no self-respecting post house would be caught dead going through the multiple generations of compression you’ve described (the exception of course are lossless and uncompressed). The traditional offline/online approach would allow editing with low-rez proxies through the multiple stages, then replacing with the original R3D files at the final (online/colour correction/output) stage.
Of course, if there’s one thing I’ve learned about film vs digital, is it’s nigh on impossible to say someone who feels very strongly either way. We have directors that shoot on one or the other, and we have directors that shoot on both. They both give great results, the only reason we might push a director in a certain (RED) direction is if the budget dictated it or there were heavy post requirements. The rest of the time, they choose it of their own accord. Then we have to sell the client on it…
Unfortunately the argument regarding resolution is not complete because it doesn’t mention Digital Intermediate aka DI aka scanning the original negative.
You can do this for two reasons: (a) maintain the quality, (b) extensive post-production. This keeps up the resolution a few notches, because you skip the optical copying, and stay also in the 4k/2k digital domain.
The assumption would be that the original R3D file will be the the actual final file for color correction/conform.
This is assuming that there is no effects or optical work to be done.
Lately even non-effects films have a handful or more “invisible” effects work done. Then the R3D files have to be rendered to something else like DPX before final cc/conform.
I would hope someone comes out with a intermediate codec/format besides DPX that we can conform all camera original material to.
Now it’s true that full resolution of a 35mm negative is 4k, but it’s a physical media, so you can scan as high as you want. The question would be is it worth scanning higher and how much do you gain for the cost, storage and processing needs.
Actually, film’s actual resolution is somewhere around 2k, scanning at higher resolution doesn’t add more detail at all, in fact scanning at 4k helps only to preserves the actual 2k details (the Nyquist–Shannon law) and reducing the aliasing effect that is caused by the digitizing process.
Jason,
Wow where do I start?
1. 35mm Film does not have a higher optical resolution than 4K. IMAX yes, because it is 70mm, but not 35mm film. As far as latitude, did you see the last part of my article that took the RAW data from RED and how I engineer my own process and look? Rather than taking your project into a lab for development and waiting for several days, RED gives you the power to do anything you want right at your finger tips. Remember, speed of thought is very important in this day and age. Yes, film can be archived physically but nothing lasts forever. Hard drives also have to be changed out and data transferred, but when you copy something digitally, your not losing any quality because its all 0s and 1s.
2. Saying that 35mm film is 2.5d is like saying “These speakers go to 11.” If you are talking about depth of field, then that’s a different story. As I mentioned, the RED Camera uses a full 35mm CMOS sensors that can use 35mm still and motion lenses, there by giving your project the desired look that you want to give it.
3. Digital NEVER degrades, only the medium that they are stored on does. Hard drives degrade but the data never does because its all 0s and 1s. Compression is different with every camera out there. Remember the REDCODE 28 /36 part of my article? Sony and JVC’s XDCAM is 4:2:0 color space @ 35Mbits. Panasonic is 4:2:2 color space @ 100 Mbits. REDCODE is 4:4:4 (the latitude of film) @ over 200 Mbits per second. The only time you lose resolution and color data is when you compress your work with either MPEG-2 or H.264 for the web or any other type of distribution. If you output to Apple ProRes HQ (220 Mbits) or Uncompressed 10-bit 4:2:2, yes you lose a little bit of the data but the same goes with film. Film degrades the more you copy it and as I said, when it comes to your theater, its only about 1.2K worth of data vs the digital quality of 2K that came from the RED.
Even after you finish like this, you still have your original 4K data that you original shot because our editing systems can’t output or write 4K files yet. With the dawn of 64-bit programs and operating systems (like Snow Leopard and Final Cut Studio 3), this is likely to change in less than a year.
I still believe this argument between film and digital is a age/generation gap. I had another friend who’s an actor say he wants to shoot his short on 35mm and I told him the RED was going to be a better choice.
It’s a vicious circle ^_^.
Carlos,
A really well put together article. It is nice to see someone is starting to navigate the digital road map AND document it with plenty of pictures that help show what real production is like.
Like you, I think, I have been touting the benefits of the digital format for years and a lot of the arguments do seem to be from a slightly more ‘experienced generation’ as to why film is superior. At the end of the day for me at least, it comes down to how well the scenes are lit/lighting, whether for film or DV. That being said. Even as the digital world advances I see merit in how the technology of the film format is advancing too. (How Epic can film get?)
Also it does help to have terrabites of storage on hand and dual-quad core processors… (years ago, like just 6) that would have seemed excessive. Now a days you need that just to be in the game at all. Being well versed in the whole data flow is a very real issue and can be so detrimental to your project at so many stages. Keeping up with HD changes and the file management of the shoot must have been pretty exciting and stressful at the same time. (Waiting 2 hours for a data dump… *eyes wide*)
Keep up the great work .. I will be looking for your next tale of action and adventure!
BTW.. That skate video looks really compressed now.. I noticed it a while back and I think it looks better either on Vimeos site or… where ever it was that I saw it first.. It is really amazing stuff either way.
Yeah, I saw the skateboard video a while back also but decided to use it as a way to show the 120 FPS on the RED. Can’t avoid compression on the web ^_^.
I’ll have to disagree with your assessment that one only use REDCODE 28 unless recording to the RED DRIVE. I’ve been using REDCODE 36 with both my 8GB and 16GB CF Cards on firmware builds 15 & 17, shooting two features and a short. I’ve even shot off speed using REDCODE 36 at both 3k and 2k.
Just this week I tried the new firmware 20 and recorded to the 16GB card without any problems.
A nice post Carlos and some good advice.
Also some inaccuracies unfortunately.
You conveniently ignore the DI process, which most films go through nowadays, when comparing digital and film. Worse, you perpetuate the myth that the Red is 4K – it has over 4,000 photosites, which is not the same thing at all as 4000 pixels.
I am also puzzled by your claims that the camera is noisy for sound – the fans shut down while the camera is rolling ?
Also puzzled by your figures for data rates, which suggest that an 8Gb card will record less than 8 minutes of footage at Redcode 28 and 2K. I had heard that it was possible to shoot more than 10 minutes at 2K on one 8Gb card, even at 16:9 AR.
I am awaiting the arrival of my red one and 4 x 8Gb cards, so I do hope you are wrong!
The maximum resolution of 35mm negative film is 3.2k with ISO/ASA 50 film stock.
[when was the last time anyone ever shot that emulsion?]
That’s a very important fact people always seem to leave out of the discussion.
Higher ISO/ASA stocks have less resolution.
EDIT: Sorry i just did some research and REDepic is actually a digital format… Not EPIC film stock as I imagined
Carlos,
I enjoyed reading your article. It is always interesting to see how people are doing things.
I love the Red and think that it represents a great leap forward for the whole independent film industry, bringing down the price point and quality for the regular guy.
Myself I own a HPX-300 and love it. A much easier camera for shooting stock and run and gun stuff, which is mostly what I do. I may end up with a Scarlet one day but that’s a whole other discussion.
The reason I am leaving this comment though is to let you know, you say that the Red is a 4:4:4 camera. This is not a completely true statement and is a popular misconception which I thought true also until I watched this informative series of videos which I would recommend for anyone interested in the subject of digital cinematography. Enjoy:
http://media.panavision.com/ScreeningRoom/Screening_Room/Demystifying_Additional_Information.html
Content is king!
With a good history, uses 35mm film or the RED One will give you a great movie.
For the budget, RED is the best choice.
If I have lots of money, maybe would choose 35mm film, to look like a “purist”.
Great article.
As an editor, who frequently also does the data wrangling, I just have 2 additions. starting with build 16 the heat issue has been getting a lot better. The fan goes all the time until you hit the record button. Would a better cooling system be beneficial, yes, but you can shoot in LA outside during the day without ice packs now.
The second comment is. Offload your drive multiple times during the day. First of all, it won’t take 90 minutes if you do it, let’s say after every scene (at least twice before lunch, and twice after).
The more important reason is that in case of a drive failure (they are still spinning drive that can crash), you only loose a couple of hours of work instead of a whole day.
Hey dangerd,
Yes, I’ve seen some of these videos/pdfs before. If I remember correctly, I believe they said that since the RED Camera only has 1 CMOS sensor and not 3 sensors like most CCD and CMOS cameras (like the EX1 or HPX170) that all of the 4K information is split between the colors. I think he said it was something like 2K for Green, 1K for Blue, and 1K for RED. It’s really interesting when he starts to talk about the result compared to film:
“Ultimately, neither a 4K scan nor a (3-chip) 4K camera sensor can really transfer resolution up to 4K. This is not an easily digestible paradigm. It basically means that 4K
data only contains 4K information if it was created pixel by pixel on a computer—without creating an optical image beforehand. However, this cannot be the solution, because we would then in the future have to make do with animation movies only— a scenario in which actors and their affairs could only be created on the computer.”
A very interesting read. Still visually, when working with a digital format, I’d say the only thing that almost comes close to RED is 10bit AVC-Intra 4:2:2. That HPX300 can still give you some of the most beautiful images I’ve ever seen.
[...] over to the Mind Warp Blog to read [...]
Hi Carlos,
Forgive my ignorance, but in the still photography world it seems that the megapixel equivalent to 35mm film is much higher than 2 or 4MP (see for example http://www.clarkvision.com/imagedetail/film.vs.digital.1.html). Is there a reason why megapixel equivalents is different for film? Or is it just that projection output is always less than 2k, so input differences don’t matter?
errmmmm 35mm vs red? are you joking? just take a look at the highlights in your skate test video and tell me what that would look like on 35mm.. not to mention the sense of depth and texture of film… this argument is not even valid yet.. wait 5-10 years and maybe the red cams will rival film.. until then.. if you have the budget.. shoot 35mm
UPDATE: FINAL CUT STUDIO 3 HAS BEEN ANNOUNCED!
Final Cut Pro 7 and COLOR 1.5 now FULLY SUPPORT REDCODE 4K Files.
Details can be found here:
http://images.apple.com/finalcutstudio/color/final-cut-integration.html
Thank you for this e-mail. Although I glanced over it for now, I will look further into what you are actually talking about in further detail when I have more time. However, I did read some of the information and do agree with alot of what you have to say about the RED and learned alot more as well. So Please do keep me posted with more facts as they come about with the RED in comparison to film because ultimately as a cinematographer we want to capture the best image possible in the most efficient way. I can not thank you enough for this e-mail and support. K.I.T.
Digital Never Degrades…
That’s true if you are making a copy of a digital file.
What about when you shoot digital and you want to manipulate it. This is almost always the case since some color correction, vfx or touch up work usually needs to be done.
Anytime you manipulated pixels and rendered out a new version, it’s always possible to introduce some degradation. It all depends how much manipulation is going on, the workflow, and what digital formats are involved.
[...] Read this article from Mindwarp Entertainment. [...]
ok so, theyres so many good points on here and so many bad points also.
will try to keep it short.
1. film has a higher latitude then the red. know your format, protect your highlights and test your pipeline.
2. 4k red means 4096×2304 but resolves to an optical resolution of 3.2k.
3. your data rates off off the chart. Redcode 28 @ 4k 2:1 to 8gig gives you approximately 4 1/2 minutes. less at redcode 36 and less at 16:9.
4. 2k is cropping the sensor and only capturing 1/4 or your sensor real estate similar to 2/3″ or 16mm. you can do the maths for exact figures if you wish. the data rate is like a pipeline so when you limit your capture area by 1/4 then you open up the speed at which the sensor can capture meaning your multiplying the FPS by 4. it all comes down to the datarate.
5. transferring data off Reddrive to FW800 should be around 100gig/hr which is around 1hr of footage.
a 320 gig REDDRIVE is about 3hrs and should take 3 hrs to transfer with out a MD5 checksum. double the time if you are using checksum.
@ FW400 it should be a gig a minute. 100min=100minutes. :(
you are limited by the smallest connection so if your using a macbook pro you only have 1 FW800 slot. you need to get a PcExpress card reader to FW800 (usually dual) for more connections or a Esata PcExpress. If you dont have either. Use a Fw800>Fw400 cable. Plug your REDDRIVE in and read off the FW400 connector then your FW800 Ext HDD on the FW800 slot.
The fact is data transferring takes a long time and it should be done in staggered steps during the shoot. But these times are way too long. Also dont let them shoot more then 10% on a red drive before transferring. 10%=32gig=20mins footage x 2 cameras x2 copies = 1hr of transferring (x 2 for checksums)
6. overcranking means adjusting your shutter to compensate. always check this.
7. AFAIK overheating hasnt been an issue since build 8, setup you camera to turn fans on when not recording. i have had issues in the sun on a 40degC day on long takes over 10 mins and the cam shuts down. :( but thats been 1 day in 2 years.
8. sync sound. agreed. gen lock master TC from lockkit box. get sound onto it early. do not take TC from camera.
9. Hmmm personally dont use log and transfer for FCP. its sucks balls. if you dont have a red rocket card and your generating offlines, go buy one, you can afford a mac you can afford a red rocket, sorry but it will save you hours of your life and you can see your family every now and then. otherwise use red rushes, render go to bed wake up and check your footage.
you can easily load all of the _h.mov proxies into FCP and then relink to newly generated offline renders from red rushes. I use red rocket so i tmp grade everything in rocketcineX then render to ProresLT. I am spoilt with a new 8 core nehalem and FCS3, but im currently getting 1.5xRT to ProresLT (so 1hr footage=1 1/2 hr render)
check render: load all proxies and preresLT into FCP. drop Prores first, yes to auto settings, then drop proxy over the top of the prores clips and you will see any incomplete clips.
10. quality loss in film for each generation print made but also generation loss in digital depending whether there is compression or not. a digital copy is a digital copy. if every byte is the same and this can be verified by a checksum then it is technically identical. Your image loses quality if you render out from R3D to another format. The process for generating assets for DI ie. 10BIT DPX log is an extremely important process. If not setup correctly in the intermediate tool/program ie Red Alert/RedCine then you could quite easily lose colour information. ie highlights and shadows. make sure whoever does this knows what they are doing. ive had producers do this on their macbooks and then wonder in the grade why their footage looks so bad.
Re colour. im a scratch guy so i stay away from colour if i can. but i do recommend that if you do use colour to get your self a wave tangent panel. around $US2500 i think. not sure look it up but grading without a panel is like flying without wings. And if you dont understand the difference between colour space and gamma space then go look it up. the world is a clearer place once you get those two things.
one last point. Your data guy needs to know what hes doing and not be a copy paste / jnr from the office guy. No offence to office jnrs, but they are essentially your Lab – onset. If they know what they are doing they are a valuable resource to both the planning and preparation to the technical outset of your production, safely backups all your data to 2 copies yep 2. even 3, with one remaining onset on a Raid1 set of Drives.
Also archive off to something such as LTO3 or 4
And please provide your crew with enough media to cover your own asses. i would suggest at the minimum of 2 REDDRIVES 320gig and 4 16gig CF cards per camera per day. Give your guys more then the turn around before your formatting your previous days media to shoot your next day. Not saying your Data guys dont do their job im sure they do but you want to give yourself as much time between formatting and potential drive failures.
oh and how cool does scarlet look :)
cheers
Chesh
[...] RED ALERT! 10 Things RED Camera Users Need To Know [...]
Forgive me for saying but at least part of this debate strikes me as slightly spurious. Trying to calculate the detail of film in digital pixels might make for a good game of one-up-manship, but surely it’s missing the point. Aren’t the key questions: which format looks better and which format is more practical/cost effective? I think the answer to the question which format has the higher resolution is: they’re both plenty sharp enough.
Regarding what I would maintain to be the important questions I think the answers are predictable. For me film looks a fair bit better, having an aesthetic that no other format can really match. Red is definitely cheaper and more convenient, but not by that much. The camera body might be cheap as chips but if you’re looking to hire a camera package with good lenses (no one’s mentioned lenses) you’ll probably get abetter deal for 35mm. I’m working on a movie right now where the transcoding of Red files for the offline takes almost as long as film processing. Generally the cost of working on Red in post-production, especially at 4k, is very high.
Don’t get me wrong though, Red is an amazing step forward; but it’s not yet knocked 35mm out of the water.
Best,
Guy
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this info is really useful and great to have access to, parts are a little dated as far as I know. With most RED cameras now, overheating is not really an issue. The only heat issue I’ve had was on long takes in 110 degree weather. And even then, it just gave me the yellow warning sign. it didn’t shut off or stop the roll or anything. Also, I don’t know anybody who ingests red footage directly into final cut, but that might be something people still do. I thought that didn’t turn out to be too popular.
the rest looks good though!
not that i tried too many formats or cameras , but redcode 36 is the only that doesnt degrade in quality of picture when playing with red giant film looks or other similar plugins in adobe , gotta love red